Wednesday, November 2, 2011

Rules Nazi Episode IX - More Turret BS

I'd just come across a very disturbing rule regarding Turrets.

I'm sure we all know already how much I hate the 180 turret rules. I'm actually OK with them now for simplicity. I'd still prefer the 90 degree arc.

But whats disturbing, maybe even more so then Phils use of 'another', is I came across a rule I hadn't realized before. Probably because there is almost never a reason to turn your turret and it just doesn't happen.

I was paroozing the forum, and came across a question about slow traverse. The person who answered said it was measured from the hull. I KNEW he was totally out to lunch. But figured I'd better look it up just to be sure. To my shock, he was correct. You measure the penalties for both Slow Traverse and Limited Vision from the front of the HULL, and not the Turret like I'd assumed.

So what you say?

Well, lets say there is a target behind my Tiger tank. I decide to rotate my turret to shoot at him, exposing my flank because of a rotated turret. I suffer a +1 to hit for slow traverse...ok fine.

Slow Traverse Penalty

Next turn. I can do 1 of 2 things. #1 - I can turn my turret back to the front shooting at the target in front, and NOT receiving a +1 penalty for slow traverse. (yes apparently the turret turns faster going back to the front)

#2 - I can keep my turret facing and shoot at the same target (or another one behind), but I would STILL incur the +1 slow traverse penalty.

Makes absolutely no sense to me.

Penalty should change to IS-2

I even checked the MALFTF, and sure enough Phil says working as intended. I can't fathom how.

One response I imagined someone claiming is that the game is in constant motion its not static...
(After i wrote this the very next answer was in fact this)

yes, I'm all for that...but then on my enemies turn he should not get a flank shot for a turned turret.

Someone's actually response was KISS...I think we are beyond KISS when are 'mini' rule book is 164 pages and our 'errata' is 143 pages. Plus you already have to measure turret angles with the flank shots.

The other thing I noticed is that the Slow traverse attribute is listed on the Main Gun, and limited vision is listed under vehicle attributes.

Almost like they were suppose to be different even though they are the exact same rule. I'm not even sure why they would be listed in different spots. Hull mounted guns can't shoot behind the 180 arc anyway.

Maybe limited vision would work with the hull.  Maybe they can see frontwards better because the driver and radio man face front or something?
But Slow Traverse should most definitely be from the front of turret, since what they are saying here is the turret turns slow.
Thats my guess as to why they are listed differently.

I can't imagine why this shouldn't be the turret 180 arc...if anyone else knows please enlighten me.

Someone suggested to me the other day that I should rewrite the book as a side project. I'm pretty sure I can make a clearer rule book in less then 307 pages with out changing any of the rules.


  1. Honestly, I hope in V3 turrets just don't factor into armor at all. Just drop it entirely. You know, in the effort of "KISS", I think it works magnificently. Turrets have 360* fire, hull mounted has front 180*. No complicated turrets rules. done!

  2. Oh also "Maybe limited vision would work with the hull. Maybe they can see frontwards better because the driver and radio man face front or something?
    But Slow Traverse should most definitely be from the front of turret, since what they are saying here is the turret turns slow. "


  3. Just when I think it is safe to read your blog, you pull another one.

    I would sh@t my pants if someone started to claim this. Yes, it turns out they would be correct. But it is insane.

    I am with you, if this is the rule then you can't get a side shot on my turret. I don't see how you can have it both ways. Or better stated, slow travers is basically hull mounted - only it magically returns to the front after you shoot, but also after the enemy fires because heck, you want them to penetrate the easiest armor!! :-)

    Keep it up my friend!

  4. ya the rule would be fine if it worked like steve says.

    turret doesn't factor into armour shots.

    then things are can play the "constant motion" card...and say your turret just returns to the front each turn.

    then maybe this rule would be believable.

    but i'm totally with you WebGriffin...if someone pulled this on me at a tournament I would have totally called BS.

  5. Cheating American NikNovember 5, 2011 at 3:16 PM

    Well, I have to say, I agree, it should be from the turret, not the hull.

    Although at the same time I do enjoy the fact your turret can expose you. It's great to have that 360 degree line of sight, but at the same time, you don't want to expose your turret to the enemy. I like it because it's a benefit and a drawback.

    Also, get on making the tournament software first, THEN you can rewrite rulebooks :P

  6. lol, ya I should get on that.

    I told Joe Krone i was going to do it at the beginning of the summer.

  7. Confirmed this has been fixed for version 3.